Turnabout Anecdotes and Memoirs of Two Decades (2021)

Title: Turnabout Anecdotes and Memoirs of Two Decades / 『逆転の逸話と20年の回想』
Source:  Famitsu, November 4 issue, 2021
 

Summary: Famitsu celebrated the twentieth anniversary of the Gyakuten Saiban (Ace Attorney) franchise with a special counting over thirty pages, with retrospectives on the whole franchise, from games to spin-off material and also several interviews with key staff members who have worked on the various games in these twenty years. In this article, Famitsu interviews series creator Takumi Shū, addressing points like how it was working on the original game twenty years ago, how the writing process goes, people he worked with and the way the series has grown into a multimedia franchise that is much more than just one single GameBoy Advance game. 

 

To Create is to Live

Interviewer: I’ve heard you said that Gyakuten Saiban (Ace Attorney) was developed with the idea it would be a game one could even play ten years later, but it’s still loved twenty years later.
 

Takumi: I couldn’t have imagined it would last twenty years (laugh). Lately you even see that both the parents and their children have played these games, so across two generations. That tells me how broad the fanbase is. It’s just amazing. I couldn’t be more grateful!
 

Interviewer: I believe you were still in your twenties when you worked on the first game?
 

Takumi: It was the final year of my twenties when I worked on the first game. I worked really hard, wanting to finish the scenario still in my twenties, but sadly I was about ten days in my thirties when I finally finished it (laugh). Gyakuten Saiban was actually originally started as a project to train and develop young developers like myself. My boss, who was also my mentor when it comes to game creation, gave me half a year to make whatever I wanted. I originally chose this industry because I wanted to make a mystery game, and figuring this was a once in a lifetime chance, I gave the project everything I had. I looked back at my notes back then, which say I started working on it in September 2000. We first went on a “courtroom tour” with the team it seems. Two months later, in November, the first demo was done.
 

Interviewer: You had something working already after two months? I heard that you were working on the game before the release of the GameBoy Advance, and that you were working with just a bare 

motherboard.
 

Takumi: That brings back memories. Actually, the original plan was to make the game for the GameBoy. But we caught news that Nintendo was going to release new hardware, and Capcom received a prototype of the GameBoy Advance, which was still in development. We were so impressed with how great the screen looked. We were all so excited we could go create a game for such a system.
 

Interviewer: So the project went smoothly. Did the first ROM you finished look promising?
 

Takumi: It wasn’t fun to play at all (laugh). It was panned by everyone, with complaints it was unclear what the player was supposed to do. My mentor I just mentioned, he warned me that at this rate, he’d have to disband the team. Afterwards I learnt he was just showing us some tough love. So we reworked the game again and arrived at the current trial system. This happened around the end of the year.
 

Interviewer: That would be the fundamental gameplay of the series, right?
 

Takumi: Even when I look at my own notes now, I can’t believe what it says. Apparently I did episode 2 Turnabout Sisters in February, episode 3 Turnabout Tonosaman (Turnabout Samurai) in March, the final episode Turnabout Goodbyes in April, and it says Finished in May.

Interviewer: You wrote an episode a month!? Like you were working on a serialization of Gyakuten Saiban!
 

Takumi: I had of course prepared the basic plots of each episode in advance, but still, it’s kinda creepy how fast we worked. But we wouldn’t have made the deadline if we had worked any slower.
 

Interviewer: So your boss’ warning gave you a boost?

Takumi: It spurred us on, but it was also like putting our backs to the cliff. Oh yeah, we had an end-of-year party with the whole development section, and for some reason I did a magic show there. But I was all gloomy inside while doing those magic tricks (laugh).
 

Interviewer: “I have better things to do now than making pigeons appear!!”(laugh)
 

Takumi: And just when the schedule was so tight I couldn’t even take a day off, I caught a cold. Ah, the fine memories of me crying as  I went to the doctor for IV drops… (laugh) It was just when I was working on Turnabout Tonosaman.
 

Interviewer: Development on these games has been dramatic since the very first game, it seems.

Takumi: It doesn’t matter what the game is, it always turns into an ordeal. Especially Gyakuten Saiban 4 (Ace Attorney 4 - Apollo Justice) and Dai Gyakuten Saiban (The Great Ace Attorney - Adventures) put even more pressure on me than usual, as they were turning points in the series. Dai Gyakuten Saiban in particular was dramatic. The concept was “creating a new Gyakuten Saiban” and we’d welcome Sherlock Holmes, a character I’ve loved for a long time, to the franchise, so I became too ambitious. I came up with the overall flow of the story in the first six months, but I had just stuffed too much into it. Near the end of the development cycle, we faced the painful situation that due to scheduling issues, we had to cut the story up because it would be far too much for one game. I could feel that hit right in my stomach. And I was actually admitted to the hospital twice (laugh).
 

Interviewer: You had to go the hospital? Were you okay?
 

Takumi: Once at the end of the development cycle of Dai Gyakuten Saiban, and once at the end of the development cycle of Dai Gyakuten Saiban 2 (The Great Ace Attorney – Resolve). I was released both times, so I guess I’m okay? (laugh) So as a result, Dai Gyakuten Saiban had to be split in two games, but it allowed me to work out the story into something greater than I had originally imagined. And there are also parts I changed greatly due to the fan reaction. For example, the plotline that (REDACTED) was actually (REDACTED)…
 

Interviewer: Huh! So that means that reappearance hadn't been planned from the start…
 

Takumi: It wasn’t in the original plot. We had to go through a lot, but thanks everyone in the team, I think we ended up with something even better (laugh).

Interviewer: I suppose that when it comes to writing the scenario, the hard parts are laying out clues and foreshadowing, and creating the core plot?
 

Takumi: Indeed. When I first started doing this, I just wrote without thinking. That’s how I wrote Turnabout Sisters in the first game for example. But when Mayoi-chan (Maya Fey) who had been arrested was asked by Naruhodo-kun (Phoenix Wright) about her parents, my hands just stopped. I couldn’t continue writing. “That’s a good question, where ARE her parents?” From that point on, I would plan out a plot in advance But there are also parts that are what you may call ad-libbed, like during a live performance. The parrot in the last episode for example, she wasn’t there during the plotting process. I had just finished Turnabout Tonosaman, and people liked Kyūta (Cody Hackins), so I started thinking about another weird witness… and that’s how I ended up with Sayuri-san (Polly).
Interviewer: And she’s a surprisingly important witness too (laugh). Does it happen often you changed things as you’re writing?
 

Takumi: Since Gyakuten Saiban 2 (Ace Attorney 2 - Justice for All) I generally plan the plot in detail before I start writing. However, I just wasn’t able to plan the plot of the final episode of Gyakuten Saiban 3 (Ace Attorney 3 - Trials and Tribulations) in advance… I just closed my eyes and resorted to procrastination: “My future self will figure something out…”
 

Interviewer: Like Lion Mask!
 

Takumi: Exactly, like the great mangaka Funyakonya from Doraemon! (laugh) So six months pass. The day before I have to start writing, a miracle happened. I suddenly saw the final destination of the story, so I somewhat managed to write the plot.
 

Interviewer: It’s a story where the plans of various characters intertwine in a complex manner, so I wouldn’t have guessed you had written it under such circumstances.

Takumi: The hard part of that episode was the question of how I could make the culprit get what was coming to her even though they can’t be punished by the law. I had trouble finding an answer, but when I found myself cornered, I decided to approach the problem from a different angle. Up until then, I had written the plots of each episode based on the trickery I had prepared and the circumstances, with the characters just painted in later, but this time, I turned things around. So I started thinking: “I have this situation. What would this character do?” “What would Mayoi-chan do if she’s in trouble? She’d would ask that person of course. And what would she tell Mayoi-chan to do?” And that’s when I realized what the one method was that could deliver a hit to the culprit, and all the plotlines would come together at one point.

Interviewer: Wow! A true turnabout!

Takumi: Yes. When I think back now, it was something I really should have celebrated because how I had resolved everything so cleanly, but my notes from then just say: “Oh boy, now I can finally start writing.” (laugh).

The Final Adjustments Are the Fun Part

Interviewer: You have given us a glimpse in the hardships of game development. What is fun about the process?

Takumi: The final adjustments are the fun part. Characters, animations, music, all of that is created based on the draft scenario and we use that as the base to put a game together. That trial version is then handed to me, and I get to adjust things. I’ll change lines to fit the characters better, decide which animations to use, set in detail which music and sound effects play when… I’m so happy then, I could work on that forever. As you work on it, you can really feel how the game is slowly coming together and becoming a finished product.

Interviewer: Do you remember any specific scenes that really improved during the final adjustments?
 

Takumi: The scene in the final episode of Dai Gyakuten Saiban 2, when the true culprit breaks down was originally not in the scenario. But as I was working on the final adjustments, I felt this had to be a big moment. It was a tight schedule, but everyone on the team was enthusiastic, and that’s how that climax was born.

Interviewer: So it’s important to stay focused until the very end.

Takumi: No matter how good the plot or the trickery is, a game is a failure if the final product doesn’t feel fun when playing it. You have to make people feel they enjoyed the game, so I keep working on a game until I truly feel it’s fun.

A Recipe for the Trickery in Gyakuten

Interviewer: What are the feats of trickery you created that you like best?

Taumi: I like the trick with the lake and the boat of episode 4 Turnabout Goodbyes of the first game. I often just borrow ideas from mystery fiction I have read and combine them together when writing. The trick of this episode might be simple, but this one is my own original. And because there was a lake, I was thinking about having a monster appear, when the news on television reported on a gas cylinder exploding and flying into a home… I knew I had to use that.

Interviewer: So that’s where Hyosshi (Gourdy) comes from! (laugh)
 

Takumi: I also like the circus trick from episode 3 of Gyakuten Saiban 2. But I have heard rumors here and there that opinions are quite divided… (laugh). But when the trick is revealed, you have that loud drum roll playing as if it was really a circus show, so combined with that presentation, I think it was pretty good (laugh).
 

Interviewer: It was indeed a trick that really oozed “Gyakuten Saiban”, being both ridiculous yet strangely convincing…

Takumi: And I had trouble with the trick of the final episode of Gyakuten Saiban 3. I started with the hanging bridge, but even I have to admit that was pushing things. But then I left everything up to Tenryūsai Mashisu (Laurice Deauxnim). I figured he’d come up with something (laugh).
 

Interviewer: The characters all hold great powers (laugh). We have also interviewed character designer Mr. Nuri for this occasion. Any memorable episodes concerning him?
 

Takumi: I’ve known him since we worked on Gyakuten Saiban - Yomigaeru Gyakuten (Ace Attorney 1 DS) and then Gyakuten Saiban 4, Professor Layton VS Gyakuten Saiban and then Dai Gyakuten Saiban. He’s the one I’ve worked together with for the longest time. The first I went to his desk to be introduced to him, he was already working on illustrations of Naruhodo-kun and Mayoi-chan. My first impression was that he could draw really well. He’s a splendid adult, but he can be very fuzzy when it comes to his work. It’s that passion that makes the quality of the games possible, so I’m always grateful he’s around.

Interviewer: How do you discuss character designs with him?

Takumi: Early on I’d discuss the designs in detail with him, but since Dai Gyakuten Saiban, I often just leave things up to him to decide, save for the main characters. I have him read the scenario and we discuss how the characters should look like. Like Ryūnosuke’s hair, that’s just perfect. It fits the idea we have of the hairstyle of a male in the Meij period, but it also has the spikey elements that’s part of the Naruhodō clan. It must have been difficult coming up with that. And he also gave me valuable advice when it comes to the story. He’s one of the staff members who have been a pillar for this series.
 

Interviewer: Talking about pillars, the series has seen many producers.
 

Takumi: Yes, Producers can be reliable comrades at times, and at other times fearsome enemies who hold tremendous power (laugh). Especially my mentor, who was the supervisor of the first game, has been one of the most important people in my life: he was the one who whipped the fundamentals of game creation into me when I started out and he was the one gave me the opportunity to create Gyakuten Saiban. I will never forget how twenty years ago, after we had completed the game and he played it until the end, he just said “It was fun. Good!” Gyakuten Saiban is a series that has been blessed with the creators that have crossed its path, from designers like Nuri and Iwamoto and more, but don’t forget about the music. Sugimori who created an original world that leave an impression the moment you hear the music, Mr. Iwadare who broadened that world music-wise, and Mr. Kitagawa who brought, how should I put it, something dramatic, or something amazing at any rate with his music for Professor Layton VS Gyakuten Saiban and Dai Gyakuten Saiban. When I think back to scenes from the games, the first thing that comes into mind is the music I love so much.

All Collaborations Have Been Done, So Next Up: Hollywood?

 

Interviewer: The Gyakuten Saiban series has seen collaborations across a wide variety of genres these twenty years. A relatively recent project I remember well is the television anime series.
 

Takumi: It became an anime 15 years after the first game was released. If you look at it now, you’ll notice the two series were broadcast in 2016 and 2018, matching the years in the games perfectly. Mysterious how coincidences work out. To be honest, I was worried at first, but Watanabe Ayumu, the director and the screenplay writer Tomioka Atsuhiro really took the time to work on the scripts and the power of the voice actors like Kaji Yūki also left an impression on me. And it was fun I got to work on original episodes not shown in the game, set in the childhood of Naruhodo and the others.
Interviewer: As for other multimedia projects, the Takarazuka Revue performances made quite an impact.
 

Takumi: The Takarazuka Revue musicals were the first collaboration projects for the Gyakuten Saiban series. Thinking back now, I’m really glad the Takarazuka Revue musicals were the first. To be honest, personally I think Gyakuten Saiban is best enjoyed when played as a game. So I felt very little for the collaboration at first. But my thoughts changed after I saw one of their musicals. Gyakuten Saiban is far removed from reality, it’s basically a fantasy story, the essence being the element of fun of a mystery story. And in Takarazuka Revue musicals offer in all their stories a dream world, an unrealistic world where women all dance and sing. So the two were actually very compatible. The performance left quite an impression. Mitsurugi (Miles Edgeworth) singing while five other Mitsurugis close in and the six of them start dancing magnificently.
 

Interviewer: Oh, that’s the scene where he says “I decide the rules.”
 

Takumi: My friends all thought that was so wonderful and we all started singing that song (laugh). It was a fantastic performance. Fortunately, Suzuki Kei of the Takarazuka Revue, who wrote and directed the plays, was a fan of the games, and you could feel that in the end product. Oh, we also had stage plays. I got to work on Turnabout Gold Medal: script writer Saitō Eisaku and I seriously struggled with each other in order to come up with the story. Sadly enough, the new play has been postponed, but I hope the day will come when we will be able to show it to the world.
 

Interviewer: You must be happy there are so many fans of the series in so many fields?
 

Takumi: So many of these collaborations were only possible because of such wonderful meetings. Professor Layton VS Gyakuten Saiban for example was a project that got rolling because Level-5’s Hino Akihiro approached us with such passion. It was a difficult project, but the result was a fun game. Meeting with Katō Takao of SCRAP, known for the real escape rooms, was also very stimulating. Good creators can see what the other person is thinking precisely, and that moment is so relieving. We have seen many collaboration projects, but what makes us the happiest is when fans of both sides start to cross-over themselves. Fans who start to learn about contents they had not known about. There’s nothing that makes us happier than seeing that.
 

Interviewer: What genres would you like to see collaborations with in the future?
 

Takumi: Hmm, we have manga and novels, so I guess what’s left is kabuki… or Hollywood (laugh).
 

Interviewer: Capcom already has experience with that too!
 

Takumi: Or perhaps a Bollywood film with the dancing might be fun too. Personally, I think that the time setting, clothes and music really fit the Takarazuka Revue, so I’m waiting for that call from Suzuki Kei (laugh).
 

Interviewer: What challenges would you personally like to take on in the future?
 

Takumi: Things have changed a lot in these twenty years. Nowadays, anyone can become a creator, and you’ll find many games with brand new concepts among the indies. It does feel like in this time and age, it’s becoming harder and harder to create a fun game exactly like I want within a big company like Capcom. Of course, that’s not just not just a matter of the company, but also has to do with what the players actually want, and changes that occur naturally in time. If I’ll come across a project that gets miraculously born under such circumstances, I’d like to pour all I have into it once again.
 

Interviewer: So what would you do if you were told you were given six months to make any game you wanted, just like how Gyakuten Saiban was first made.
 

Takumi: I’d like to make a small game, almost like working on a hobby. A while back I bought RPG Maker, because I wanted to try working on a prototype. But I couldn’t even make a villager walk around the way I wanted with the little knowledge I have, so I gave up (laugh). Oh, now I recall that long ago, when I first started in the industry, I made a mystery game with the Super Famicom version of RPG Maker (laugh).
 

Interviewer: Wow (laugh). I’d like the play that. Well, I’d like to end this interview by asking you how you feel about the series reaching its twentieth anniversary.
 

Takumi: I created with a game with the idea one could play it for ten years, but I look up now and double the time, twenty years have already passed. When I replay the games now, I can feel each game is like a compressed reflection of my past self of the respective period. “I was only able to write those lines because of this or that happening…” For us creators, to create is to live. Everything you have inside of you is poured into the finished game. To think that we made a game we can proudly recommend to people to play, and that after such a long time, people are still playing these games… As a creator, I couldn’t be any more blessed. It is thanks to the fans who have played these games and kept supporting us that we’ve been blessed with this twentieth anniversary. I am always grateful to you!